EPISODE 105

Sean But think about how far we’ve come, and having branding companies like yourself kind of enter the industry has been a really big breath of fresh air. So, congratulations on the episodes and also on bringing awareness to your side of the world and our world. But going back to your original question, how did I get like this? Oh man. My parents were in town this past weekend. I’m sure that they’d have a few things to say about that. I don’t know if they would be as positive as your comments were. I don’t know. I first started off in the club industry, randomly got connected to a public golf course called the Ranch Golf Club in Southwick, Massachusetts, kind of out in Western Mass. And I think the way that I got connected to that world was there was a presentation given in my college sports marketing class, and somebody had worked part-time at a golf club. I didn’t grow up in golf. I didn’t grow up in clubs. The closest country club to where I grew up was about 45 minutes to an hour. And I lived in rural upstate New York. So it wasn’t like what you’re used to in the Boston or New York area. And I randomly picked up that business card, and I just emailed the person who was on the business card. And it turned out to be the president of a golf development company. His name was Michael Doyle. He completely changed the direction of my career. And he kind of opened the door to not only private clubs but the hospitality that goes into managing private clubs. And so from there, they didn’t have an internship program. So I said, Hey, I’m in college. Would you like to create one? You give me some credits and maybe a little bit of money along the way. That would be great. And they kind of created one for me. And so I thought that that was something that was super generous in their world, but that kind of led me into spending about 10 years working for that golf development and real estate company, where I got the opportunity to be on the club management side, whether it was kind of managing different parts of the operation. I never got to that general manager title, which is okay in my book. Come to realize it, I don’t think I ever really needed or wanted that title. I really enjoyed working in a lot of different aspects of the club industry, and working in a lot of different departments helps you meet a lot of different people when you have to ask a lot of different questions. And that kind of sparked my interest in private clubs and being as curious as I could about the people that I meet, whether it’s co-workers or employees. So I think, how did I get that way? I think it’s because I came up in this private club industry through the operational world

Tucker That’s interesting. Derek and I come from a world where neither of us worked at clubs, and I think it’s always really interesting. We’ve worked with clubs. Derek’s a member of a club. I mean, we just have an understanding of how clubs work from an outsider’s perspective, but you bring that inside and outside, so then you shift to members first, where you currently work and do all this fantastic work across a bunch of clubs in different territories and all this other stuff. Talk about that today within your day-to-day and that shift from being at one club, really trying to build that out and work on that experience, too. Now you have to work across tons of experiences and different memberships and expectations and all of those different things.

Sean You have a different appreciation for your customers when you’ve actually walked in their shoes. And I feel that, specifically in my role at Members First, usually most of the projects that they reach out for, they’re not really just about that project. They’re usually trying to solve some sort of – it could be an operational issue. It could be to become more efficient. Maybe they’re trying to generate more leads, but they don’t really want to tell you that. So you kind of have to ask a couple of questions to get a good understanding as to why you are actually doing this project. So having the operational background helps. It helps ask better questions, I feel. It’s not just me at Members First. If you looked up and down our roster, there is a number of former membership and marketing directors. There are former golf professionals. There are former caddies at clubs. There are a lot of people in our organization who have worked operationally in clubs. And I think that that’s something that we bring to the table, that’s a little bit different, and it’s more fun getting to understand what every single department’s going through. That’s kind of where I find the kind of the secret sauces. Just kind of understanding what your customers are doing, where they’ve been, and how you can help them get to the next level.

Derek Let’s dig in specifically to what it is that you guys, at least from our perspective, what you and the conversations that you’re having with those club leaders specifically about their digital experience. You and I have had conversations around the fact that the member experience, and I would extend that to the potential staff members’ experience, starts online before somebody ever visits a club. We did some research and came up with a number of about 81 percent of people who are currently looking to join a club visit the club’s website before they ever set foot on property, and for many of them, that will actually determine whether or not they do step foot on property. They will make a decision based on that first digital experience. So, from your perspective, I know you’re preaching to the choir, but for our audience, for club leaders, for club managers, for marketing directors and membership leaders, what, from your experience and expertise, what is it that that first digital impression needs to accomplish?

Sean When you join a club, it’s not like the shirt that you buy, right? That’s not a tangible thing that you purchase. The tangible piece of it is the experience that you receive as a customer, as a member, as an employee, as a guest who might only get to go to that club once. So I find that the overall digital experience really sets the tone for your team at a club to shine. When somebody steps on property, and you actually deliver that experience, I think when you can blend what people do their own research on ahead of time with what they actually experience, that’s the key. I’ve always looked at it, for better or for worse. I’ve looked at digital experience like dating. More often than not, before you go on that first date, you’ve done your research on whoever that person is. And it might be through a friend of a friend, or however you were introduced to it. But when you actually go on that date, and that person lives up to that experience, you’re like, oh my goodness, this was great. And you think very highly of the person who introduced you to that person because you’re, like, Oh, they know me. They knew me, they knew that other person, and they connected us. And this would be an incredible lifetime together. Interestingly enough, my high school bully, who was my brother’s best friend, introduced me to my wife. So he knew me enough to beat up on me in high school. Not really, but he knew enough to say, Hey, you know what? This person is going to be a great fit for you. So I do relate that a lot to the digital experience because anytime you’re talking to somebody or if you’re a guest on a podcast, you kind of have to expect that that person has already done their research ahead of time.

Derek The research component is part informational, but what you’re talking about is transforming that information part of the research into a digital experience or content that actually inspires me to take that next step, that helps me get one step closer to belonging. So how do you help club leaders rethink their website so that it’s not just content for content’s sake or an about us page, but present it in a way that expresses their brand in a way that now I do want to go on that first date?

Sean It depends on who you’re talking to, and when I say talking to, it’s the customer. Who is the customer using that experience? And I usually break it down into three different areas. There’s the let’s say the public non-member facing side of the component. We all know that once you click behind the login, then that’s where you’re engaging in the club that you’ve just joined. And there are a lot of different ways to do that through the digital kind of space. But if we’re looking at kind of the public side of it, I look at the three users that I think of the most. One is your potential members. Two is your guests or your friends of members who might be playing in a member-guest or something like that. People who potentially will never join your club, but will hopefully speak great things about you afterwards. And then also the people who are going to work at your business. I think a lot of times clubs forget about how great a place they are to work, and that people have a lot of choices as to where they work. And I think that your digital experience kind of helps the member know that they’re going to be a part of a great community. And then the employee will also know that they are going to be part of a great community because you need great employees in order to deliver that great experience for members. And, I’ll use one example, kind of on the customer side of it, where it’s the employee. If I’m searching for a new place to work. Do you have dental insurance and all the other stuff that is kind of obvious? Yes, but how do you outline that? Do you just have a bulleted list of 3,000 benefits that you have, and you expect the person to read through it, potentially? What we’re seeing when people are transforming the digital side of things, especially on their website, is that they’re showing how the club is an employer of choice within the community. And it could be anything from Hey, do you have an employee fund or a scholarship fund that potentially will pay for a portion of my children’s college education? Well, you know what? You just went a level up in my book. And would I want my child to work there through high school and college and potentially gain a scholarship from the club that they’re working at? Yeah, I think that’s really great. If I’m a parent and I’m working there, I see that they’re not just taking care of me as Sean Bleyl, the employee, but they’re taking care of the Bleyl family. So that’s really important. How do you show that culture from an employee perspective online? I think you do that by letting people take a peek behind the curtain and find out what it’s like to really be there.

Tucker Right. And who you’re for. You work with committees sometimes, and you work with the membership directors, marketing directors, and communication directors. Membership is an intangible thing that you are selling, and to get that across as what we sell is two parts. We sell access to facilities, which is the tangible thing that you might want out of this. And then you sell belonging. You sell the intangible nature of being a part of a community. You can’t really put a price on that. That’s what memberships try to do, right? A club puts a price tag on it, and it’s a hard thing to price. When you look at doing that for communications, and I think we’re kind of honing in on the website, but I’m thinking broader. When you think about digital communications, you think about the digital experience. How much of a challenge is it for people at clubs to think outside of their tangible assets? Where we don’t spend all day talking about how many holes in the golf course and who was the architect of the golf courses, things like that, versus how do we showcase that lifestyle? How do we get membership directors to think more about the things that you can’t see? You can feel them. You can’t buy them. They’re not tangible.

Sean I think it’s asking the right questions. There was a project I was working on in Florida, and there was a real estate component to it, which makes it even more fun. Because the committees that we were working with kept asking about, we just want to look better online. We want to look better online and like, well, okay. Well, doesn’t everybody? I don’t think that there’s any club out there that says, Hey, I’m going to do a redesign of my website to look worse. So let’s take that off the table. I know that that’s a goal for everybody, whether you’ve redesigned in the last year, two years, three years, or 10 years. The goal is to look more current. And it took a collective effort from other committee members, our team at Members First, the membership marketing director, and the general manager. We were all huddled in a room when we came to find out somebody on the committee finally was honest, and they said, We need to look better online because I want my home value when I sell my home in three or four years. I want my home value to be as high as possible. And so when other people were looking at the community, that committee member was like, Hey, we’re not looking good online. They’re looking elsewhere. And potentially that is lowering the home value or the perception of what my home is worth within the community. And so we took that, and we drilled in a little bit deeper, and we said, Well, one, take your home aside, but why did you join? Or why did you select XYZ club to work at? You start getting to the real reasons why they’re doing the projects. And then I think that allows people to think differently about how they look and feel online in the digital space. I think once you can get over the hurdle of those questions, then you start having people look outside of their comfort zone when they’re re-imagining their digital experience. And I put the website in as the core hub of the digital experience.

Tucker When you look at that piece, how often do people get hung up on the website versus the broader digital experience? Is that a big challenge for you as you work with clubs?

Sean Yeah, I think so. Let’s face it, with any type of project, one thing you’re going to get out of it is going to be a website. That’s going be a core piece of it. But if I look at the club, if you’re going to build a club, you have to have a clubhouse. But it’s kind of what you put in that house is what actually brings the community to life. So it is a little bit of a hurdle in our world because I’ll get people who will reach out and they’ll say, Hey, we need a new website. And come to find out, when you drill a little bit deeper, they actually need more than just a website.

Derek The symptoms.

Sean Yeah, exactly. And so even breaking down some of the projects that we help clubs with, there are three major areas that we see happen as a part of a project, even if it starts out with, Hey, we just need a new website. Usually, there’s the online engagement component. How are people going to interact online, whether it’s the public non-member side of it or the behind the login? How are my customers going to engage with me digitally? The other part is getting into the marketing world, where you’re helping bring a brand to life. So let’s just say your team is building a brand for a club. Well, how do you eventually bring that to life online and then keep that moving forward? Or it could be just helping people generate leads, manage leads, and kind of onboard those members as soon as they become a member of the club. Those are kind of some areas that I find come up as a part of project conversations. But let’s face it, websites don’t come with videos, and they don’t come with words. And so I feel like the creative assets complement the design. And so if you have the best design in the world, but you have awful photos and videos and copy, you could kind of miss that mark.

Tucker It’s like a clubhouse with terrible interior design. Doesn’t really have the same feel as a clubhouse that also has great interior design. If you say, we have a great structure here. Well, structure only does so well if going into that structure isn’t that pleasing to you.

Sean In some cases, I’ll work with clubs, though. And some people will say, Oh, well, we’re super exclusive, we don’t need this. And my response usually to that is exclusive has a different definition for everybody. But I find what clubs truly deliver is just an experience, right? And it’s an experience through amenities. But I think what people are purchasing when they’re becoming a member is what is the experience I’m going to have? And not only just me, Sean Bleyl, but my family. There’s nothing better. My family joined a kind of swim tennis that has everything but a golf club in my community, and there is nothing better than hearing my five-year-old, who can’t pronounce the club that we belong to, which is kind of interesting, so it’s funny. But there’s nothing better than her saying, Hey, Dad, are we going to the club this weekend?

Tucker Absolutely.

Sean Yes. And literally, they’ve got my dues for the next 3000 years because of that. But I think those are the moments that clubs create in person. Our job at Members First, and even with your company as well, I think it’s our job to help them understand that they can also deliver that type of experience online.

Tucker It’s interesting when you would say our experience, like if you think of our digital experience across the board, exclusivity doesn’t mean that we can not be digital. Like that’s a weird correlation. I’ve heard that before, where people are like, Well, we are exclusive, so we don’t need an app, and we don’t need this, and we don’t need that. And I would say, so you’re so exclusive that you are going to invite your friend to the club, and there’s no way for them to understand where they’re going or what they’re doing before they go there? Or there’s just nothing that supports that. I think that I would love for someone to break down where people have gotten to. We’re exclusive, online equals or digital equals, not exclusive. And so I don’t understand. Have you ever cracked that code?

Sean I don’t have a boat, but I’d buy a bigger boat if I could crack that code, that’s for sure. I haven’t really cracked the code, but I’ve had a couple of conversations with membership marketing directors, general managers, committee members, whoever it is. And primarily at Members First, we’re working a lot with the membership or the communications committee, IT committee, kind of in that realm. And I think the key to breaking the code is different for every club. And there was a club in Florida where it was really interesting because the membership and marketing director had asked me to join a committee meeting, and she had said, they are just grilling and grilling me on the layout of my email. I’m like, okay, well, send me a couple of your emails. Let me take a peek at what you’re doing. Let me look at what those pieces are. And, no, that’s not necessarily a website project, but all that content that’s in the email also lives on their website and lives on the app. So there’s some efficiency there. But the layout wasn’t bad. Could it have been tweaked? Totally. It was probably a little bit longer than it needed to be. But when we got into the committee meeting, and I thought this client was going to fire us on the spot, because what we realized was that it wasn’t the layout, it was that their content was boring. And so the way that we got to that answer was I started asking the committee members, Well, what emails do you get in your inbox on a regular basis that you love? And still to this day, one of the emails that they mentioned, I religiously follow it now. It’s a Boston-based satirical newsletter that goes out daily. And it was funny because that newsletter that she gets every day in her email, that she loves, was the same exact format as the club’s newsletter. The only thing that was different was that she had eventually come around and said, This one just makes me laugh. And so that struck a tone with me. I was like, Oh my goodness. Who doesn’t love laughing? And I’m not saying that you need to be as funny as possible. There are some times when you don’t need to be, but those are the things that we’re speaking about to them, and that was a digital experience that helped them realize they didn’t really have to tweak the format. They just had to tweak the content.

Derek One of the things that we haven’t gotten into with you yet, but that we try to navigate or not try to, we have to navigate, is the differences in the generational gaps in the demographics of 40-year-olds that are joining clubs and say the 80-year-olds in those communities in Florida that you talked about, that both love their club, but they’re going to see this technology differently. We work with clubs that are still printing a printed newsletter, and there are other clubs that have gone completely away from that, and those are all digital experiences. And so this is all one community. And then I would even say, and you would know this better, but from our perspective, the private club industry, when it comes to technology, isn’t at the same level as some other industries. It seems to be where this technology, for some clubs, is a necessary evil, and others are embracing the actual impact that it can provide to increase member engagement. So how do you find that balance between helping clubs understand there’s the convenience of texting and an app and the access that they get, and their iPads and their phones, but how providing all of that to a member and having them, especially the older member who maybe isn’t as up on technology, understand that that’s part of how they become a deeper part of their community.

Sean And so I think there are two parts of your question, if I’m understanding it correctly. One is the generational uses of tech, right? And the comfort level there. And then it’s like, how to use that to deliver experience? I was attending a virtual kind of conference over the last couple of days. And one of the things that came up was about generational kind of divides or generational differences. They had mentioned that a younger demographic is willing to trade data for access. Whereas maybe a more traditional demographic is still very hesitant about that. And I understand the benefits, the pros and cons, of both of those. I don’t think it’s necessarily just our industry that’s afraid of tech, because I think that happens across all industries. The industry that you think is the most advanced is still probably using some archaic stuff. I think something as a whole we all have to kind of acknowledge is that every industry is not lightning bolts and moving as fast as they can on those pieces, because I think it’s the industries that are most successful, and just speaking of our industry, the clubs that are most successful are putting a really good strategy as to how they’re going to adapt that stuff over time. I think if you try to do too many things at once, there’s just not enough capacity to do that with what club operators are asked to do. There are just not enough people, not enough time. So one, you can use the tech to create some efficiencies within your own team. But also, you have to go a little bit at the pace of your members, but also at the pace of your staff. For example, I’ve got a couple of clubs where one of the first questions out of a golf professional’s mouth when they’re asking us about our tee sheet is going to be, Well, can we use this on an iPad at the first tee? And I’m like, Technically, yeah, you can. I said, But is your team ready for that? And if the answer is yes, then perfect. We’ve got great solutions for you. If the answer’s not yet, we’ll treat that project a little bit differently because we’ll not only want to introduce the tech, but we don’t want to overwhelm the staff, because then if the staff is overwhelmed, then ultimately they’re not going to provide a really good experience. So I think there are a lot of pieces built into that question because part of it is the industry, or all industries, adapting to change, but then having the team that is open to doing that in a strategic rollout. Those are the clubs that I think are really successful.

Derek It’s your team and the club, the club’s team, and then all the other partners that you collaborate with. People like our company, or architects, or other consultants, or other creative firms, all to help make sure that the digital experience is aligning with the club’s vision, giving them the tools, like you said, the right tools at the right time, when it makes sense. You partner with a ton of other companies, even between Members First and Jonas. At a high level, what makes some of those partnerships successful in serving these various memberships?

Sean I think collectively it’s been really great at Members First. I don’t know if you both know this, but Members First is celebrating our 25th year this year, which is really fun from a tech company standpoint. And then we’re also celebrating this year, at the same time, 10 years of being a part of the Jonas Software family of brands. And within that family of brands, we have so many different pieces of our products and services that actually touch a client’s operation or are involved in delivering a member experience. But what I’ve often found is that you are not really partnering with products. You’re partnering with people. It’s those people who actually help bring those products to life. That, I think, is the key to a successful implementation. Understanding that sometimes you have to kind of burst a little bit of a bubble when somebody reaches out on November 7th and says, Hey, I’d like a new brand, a new website, a new this, a new this, and a new that all by April of next year when the golf season starts. Sometimes it’s up to the partners to say, I would love that too, but you’re not going to be successful if you try to cram what may be a five, six, seven, eight month project into four. So I think that’s the piece that I would want from one of my partners. I would want them to say, Hey, love what you’re trying to accomplish here. Let’s think about how to roll this out successfully, not just how to roll it out.

Tucker How often do you see that? We talked earlier when you said that a lot of people come from the club industry and then work for the club industry. Meaning they’ve worked at a club and now they work for a bunch of clubs in a consulting fashion or service fashion. How often do you see it where you get someone who’s worked at the club and their entire career is about making the impossible possible for a group of people? And now they’re serving clubs for a living, and now they’re trying to make the impossible possible for clubs instead of for the members specifically. Do you see a correlation to that ever?

Sean Yeah, I think that any company that is servicing a hospitality vertical, that’s a really hard place to be in because ultimately it’s the age-old thing – you ask a question and the answer is yes, but wait, what is the question? What is that? I messed that up, but what is that saying? Do you know what I’m saying on that part of it?

Derek Yeah, the answer is yes. Now what was the question?

Sean Yes, right. And so I think that that’s the hardest part for anybody servicing the hospitality, like vertical, or any industry like that. For the people on our end of it, I look specifically at our client services managers. Every account of ours gets a dedicated client services manager. They might have me attached to the account, but they’ll also have that day-to-day person, and some of those people are coming from former users of the system. And the calls and the meetings that I’ve been on where I just sit back, and I’m just in awe, are when a client is asking a client services person to help them with something, and the answer is, yes, it’s fixed. It’s yes, but what are you trying to accomplish here? And then they have that relationship. They open that up, and they’re like, oh, now that I know what you’re trying to do. Here might be a better way to do it. So I think it comes from asking that simple follow-up question. And if you have that operational knowledge, you understand what they’re trying to accomplish, and you might be able to help them get there a little bit quicker than just fixing potentially something that wasn’t working properly.

Tucker We talked about generational things, we talked about shift, and we talked about working with other people. What trends or innovations are you excited about? As you think about the members’ digital experience, and you’re saying, I’m really excited. This might not be perfect for clubs right now in certain areas or whatnot, but as we keep moving forward. Digital changes all the time. So I think that’s a big thing for people to keep on top of. What are you excited about? What do you think is coming down the pipeline?

Sean The conversations that I enjoy the most with a lot of our clients are when they’re thinking about their projects in advance. I’m working with a club right now where they are getting ready to do a renovation. And they’re thinking about how they are going to communicate that to the membership. The members might be putting up 5, 10, 50, or 90 million dollars, depending on what part of the country. And so clubs that are reaching out to us now, the conversations that I enjoy the most, are the ones that are saying, Hey, we have this coming up over the next year, two years. Let’s face it. You know what the club’s strategic plan is from a physical standpoint well in advance. And so when the clubs are thinking about those conversations ahead of time as to how it’s going to impact them digitally, those are the things that I get excited about, is that people are thinking about the digital experience more and more these days. And when I say digital, it could be the web component. But I also think about member communications. They’re thinking about how we can communicate this amazing thing that we’re doing for the members, because it’s going to be disruptive. And those clubs that are thinking about that well in advance of when they put the shovel in the ground, that’s been exciting for me. Because I would say if we go back a couple of years, they’d reach out to us for a project, and they’d be telling us about the renovation. I’m like, Oh, that’s exciting. When do you expect to open the doors? When do you expect to break ground? And they’re like, we broke ground a month ago. I’m, like, Oh my goodness. You’re just starting to think about that communications plan? So the things that I have seen over the last few years, which have been really exciting, are that clubs are reaching out to us a lot further in advance to plan how to strategically roll out these experiences. And that’s exciting because if we look back a number of years ago, that probably wasn’t the case.

Tucker Right. I am relatively new in the club industry. For four years, I’ve been working with clubs on various projects and whatnot. I’m still shocked that strategic plans don’t include communications. The majority are facility plans. That’s really what they are. And it’s interesting to look at that and say, facilities are incredibly important, they are critical, that is the landscape in which this club operates. I totally get that. We talked about this earlier, the tangible versus the intangible, and the communications, and helping someone understand where they belong in this ecosystem. That intangible nature needs to be a part of the way that clubs think as they keep moving forward to say how do we invite people in, but then how do we keep them informed and how do we keep them excited about being engaged and being a part of this membership? I think that’s a huge opportunity.

Sean So the three of us were hanging out at the National Club Association Conference earlier this year in New York. During one of the presentations where they had two club presidents and two club general managers at some very prominent clubs within the industry. And I don’t know why I started doing this, but I was taking a bunch of notes during the education, because something led me to believe that this was going to be something that I needed to pay attention to. And I wrote it down. It was an hour-long presentation, and the word communications was mentioned over 50 times. And it wasn’t a topic on marketing and communications. It was how to communicate back to the members, how to communicate with each other, and how to learn from those pieces. And one of the club presidents at a very prominent club had said one of the best investments that they had made at their club in the last 10 years was in their communications department. And that line stuck with me because the marketing communications department or membership department is one department that touches every single department at the club. And it is also one department that doesn’t always generate revenue. They generate engagement. And engagement generates revenue. And I think that’s the core of creating a really successful digital experience – making sure that you have the team that’s delivering that marketing communications experience to their membership. If you don’t have that team in place, it doesn’t matter how great a website you have. It doesn’t matter how good an app you have. If you don’t have the team that is actually putting the strategy in place, it’ll fall flat.

Derek One of my favorite takeaways from this conversation is the metaphor of your website is essentially your digital clubhouse. I love that. Sean, for people who want to know more about you, more about Members First, may have a project, want to inquire about what that process looks like, or see some of the other examples that you guys have worked with, where would you direct them to?

Sean The best way to kind of connect with me is through LinkedIn. Not only is our team pretty active in the LinkedIn universe, but I would also say follow Members First and also follow Jonas Software on the social media channels. Of course, you can always go to our website. That is the core hub where you will find out a little bit more about us. But you can drill beyond the website within our content that we’re delivering on LinkedIn.

Derek Perfect. And before we hit the record button, we were talking a little bit about the CMAA Summit coming up next year. Why don’t you tell people what that is. People in the industry who are listening to this, give them just a little nugget about that, and where they can find out more information about attending.

Sean  We were all chatting about how much time we spend on the road, right? And the National Communication Summit is something that Members First and Jonas Software have been involved in for the last few years as one of the premier sponsors of that event. But we’ve also been involved as an organization since they started back in 2014, when there were like 10 to 12 people that were a part of that original group. Now that event has grown 10, 12 years later into an event that sells out every year. There are usually 130 to 150 people who attend that event. And they’re all membership marketing and communications directors. This year, I’m super excited because I get to wear a cowboy hat because this year it’s going to be in Nashville. I believe it’s in early April, just after the Masters, April 13th through the 15th, or the 13th, 15th, or 16th.

Derek Awesome, Sean. Thanks for joining us today. Make sure you wear boots with the hat. I think the boots are just as important. You’ve given us a ton to think about. I think I know the digital world really well, but I think even just having this conversation has given me an even better perspective when it comes to providing this sense of belonging to members and the different ways and tools that we implement that. And that’s not just for members, but it’s for the staff and the team too.

Sean Thanks again for having me. I certainly enjoy listening to your podcast and look forward to collaborating with you on a variety of other things moving forward.

Derek Thanks for listening, everybody. Till next time, cheers! Thanks for listening to Clubs Made Meaningful. At Sussner, we help private clubs build brands that create belonging. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone in your club world. And until next time, let’s create something worth celebrating.