EPISODE 92

Tucker Drew, you’ve been doing this a long time. You’ve been in the field a long time. Give us a snapshot of how you started, and then what led to your kind of day-to-day, and what that looks like in your approach to design.

Drew Well, I don’t know if this will be a surprise or not. I’m living a dream. All right. It’s that simple. Not too many of us get to pursue this profession. There are probably less than 200 of us in the country. So if you compare that to even professional athletes and the chances of becoming a star baseball, basketball, football player, whatever it is, you already know your odds are slim, but maybe even more slim to do what we’re doing. I guess I never wanted to do anything else. So I heard no a lot, and I never accepted that as an answer. And I just kept digging and grinding and trying to put myself in a position to learn and to meet people. And, lo and behold, I got a shot. And once you get your shot and you break in, you’re in. As you’d mentioned, I started work right out of college. Went to work for the architect Arthur Hills here in Toledo, Ohio, where I’m still located. Had a great run there, almost 19 years, just cutting my teeth and learning and getting exposed to all kinds of project types across the country. And, even internationally, we did a lot of work. So a lot a growth, a lot of building of expertise and confidence and ability. And in 2010, we started on our own, and I started my own practice. And that’s been particularly rewarding because, you know, it’s one thing to work under someone else’s umbrella for a long time. You’re working for them. You’re supporting their identity and who they are and the way they do things. But when you get the chance to do it on your own and do it on your terms, it is particularly rewarding because you can speak for yourself. I think that’s important in our field. We’re so relationship-driven. So it’s important to connect with one another in a very strong way. So when you’re representing yourself, you can do that.

Tucker You look at the evolution of your career, how has your approach changed? Thinking about working with clubs, thinking about working with all the different clubs, has your approach changed, or has it generally been the same when you think about how you deal with culture and the different types of people?

Drew I don’t know that it’s changed a lot. It’s evolved. And it’s evolved more or less in a natural way. As anybody in their line of work, particular line of work, would evolve, you learn more, you learn how to relate more, and you connect in stronger ways and fashions as you move along. We’re a process-oriented group, and the process that we learn and execute really has never changed from the start. We’ve got to be nimble towards all of those influences, but the process is what gets us through it. And we stay pretty strong with our process. And I think that’s why we’ve been able to be successful.

Derek Going one step sort of behind that process, thinking about you as a creative person, do you have a design philosophy? And if so, how would you describe that approach?

Drew It’s tough to put that in words. That can get really deep. It can be a little bit different from project to project or client to client. I would say we’re not gimmicky in the sense that there’s something identifiable that just comes with working with us. It’s not something you can see. It’s more something that you relate to, and you find a way to connect.

Derek It’s less of you coming in and putting your mark on a course and saying, This is now a Drew Rogers course. More so, it’s you coming in and saying, Who are the members? Who’s playing this course every day? What do they want? What’s important to them? And how can I balance that with all the other architectural factors that you play in it so that it is something that’s important and valuable ultimately to them because these are the ones that get to enjoy this course every day?

Drew You put that very well. In fact, you must know us better than we know ourselves. Uh, no, that’s true. And I guess that part of the approach that we take in our process is really understanding and connecting with each client. While a lot of them are similar in the sense that they’re a private club with a golf course, and they’re all trying to kind of get to the same place and be successful, they’re all very different and nuanced when you get right down to it. And they’ve all got slightly different objectives and different makeup and background. And it’s really important for us to get in tune with who they are, who they think they are, and who they want to grow up and be, because that’s how our work has to be developed. It has to follow that, or help them develop it. We come across both where it’s firmly in place and it’s a good starting point, and we have a place to begin our work and develop from that – that identity, but sometimes they don’t know. Sometimes it’s not there, and we’ve got to figure it out.

Derek I’m going to jump right into that, but I have to ask one more, as a golfer, one more nerdy golfer golf architecture question. So many people talk about signature holes, whether it’s the island green or the drivable par four, that famous dog leg. What’s your take on a golf course having a signature hole? Is that more about what the course owner wants, or what the member wants? Does it happen by accident? What’s up with signature holes?

Drew I don’t know. I don’t know where that all started, whether it was a marketing firm that started working with a course or whatever. It became something that I think turned into a very gimmicky sort of feature, and we don’t aspire to that at all. Anytime a client brings it up, we try and squash it right away and educate them at the same time as to why we kind of don’t want to lock ourselves into something like that. I’ve actually had to have that conversation twice in the last week. Somebody will say, Oh, that could be our signature hole. Like, well, I appreciate that you like that hole. That’s good. Okay, we’ve won on that front. But then they’ll ask, Well, can we just make that our signature hole? Well, if we’re going to single that one hole out, is that to say that all the rest of the holes aren’t any good? It sort of demeans the rest of the golf course. We don’t like to think of the golf course as individual holes. We like to think of it as a whole, uh, W H O L E.

Tucker When you’ve talked before, and Derek started the conversation with this, the course design in your mind can be a reflection of the club itself, or the culture of the people, or maybe the way they like to go about things. Before we started the recording, we talked a little bit about Oakmont, the place where the US Open this year is held, and that being sort of a reflection of them and who they are as members, and the way they like to play. So, when you show up to a project and let’s say a club doesn’t really have a clear sense of who they are, how does that come to light through this design process? How do you make sure that this does feel right for them and it does work for them if they’re not fully sure?

Drew Well, when they’re not sure, then I think sometimes it begs the effort on their part to figure it out because I don’t want to tell them what their identity is. I mean, I can say, this is my perception. This is what I see or what I think of when I see your club or I’m experiencing your club, but it has to be something that’s kind of deep within the club or the membership. It could be historical. It could be the piece of ground they’re on, the setting. It could be the makeup of the membership and what they’re all about, and what they feel strongly about as a club being together. It could be anything, really, but it’s really hard for us to start doing our work and be able to do it well if we can’t really lock into who they are.

Tucker Has that ever gone the other way where you’ve maybe seen a course or played a course, or talked to somebody and said, This doesn’t really reflect what I expect from them? Or what happens when the design of that course doesn’t meet the culture and the identity of the club?

Drew Obviously, that creates a conflict, right? If they’re saying they’re one thing, and then their facilities say another thing, that can come back to bite you. As someone who comes and visits or someone who’s looking to become a member, there’s not a lot of meat on the bone. They’re just a club with a golf course, and there’s nothing inherently special about it that’s very tangible. Those places are a little shallow. And I think when you can pull together and you do have this identity and everything you say, everything you do, all the work that you execute follows that identity, then I think you start to build something that’s pretty special.

Tucker I don’t necessarily get in arguments about this, but we get in conversations with people who say, Well, I mean, how important is identity? How important is any of that stuff? And I would say, it’s the same as saying you have no soul. I mean, the course doesn’t have an identity. It doesn’t have a soul. I don’t feel anything when I play there. We say the same thing about the work we do. Like, if I look at it, and I don’t immediately have an understanding of who you are, what you’re about, the vibe, the setting, the culture that you’re trying to convey, then you have no soul to me – good, bad, or indifferent. And so I think that that becomes really interesting when you look at the clubs who don’t necessarily care about identity. Then their facilities, their experiences, their culture, and their members tend to have a little bit of a lack of character that we can’t prop up and celebrate in the right way.

Drew I agree completely. I agree. Completely. We’re working on a project right now in South Carolina that has worked really hard on figuring out who they want to be. And it has made the whole journey pretty special because we’ve known from the very get-go what they wanted to be about, and who they wanted to appeal to, and the fact that they didn’t want to be like anybody else. It didn’t mean that they were going to be a top-10 golf course in the country. That wasn’t their objective. But their objective was to be appealing to like-minded people, to who they are, where they could be together, and they would value the same things in life and in leisure time. The golf course is part of it because they’re spending time together out on this amazing landscape. I think it’s really important to be able to pull those things together, and we’ve been fortunate that we could know from the onset that that was the objective, and we hopefully have built a golf course that responds very directly to that.

Tucker You do public and private in some scenarios, right? And so when we look at the differences between public and private, you think about identity – this is for this super small community. When I’m building it for a club, this is for a special community, a special type of person that lives in a certain area that wants certain things and has certain values, versus maybe a resort course would be built for a very different experience. But you might only play it one time. You might have to have this total allure to it that is very different than maybe an everyday play that represents the type of lifestyle you want. And so that kind of change is to help people understand what we do within their brand. That is to say, I wouldn’t look at Pebble Beach and say that is the ideal brand for my club, because that’s a very different experience than what we’re offering.

Drew That is exactly right. Just like what you said, private club versus something that is maybe an experience or a destination that you may only go and see once or twice, and that’s the objective. That’s the way they operate. And when they get you there to a destination-type facility, they want to blow your mind. And everything you see, everything you do, has to be way above exceeding your expectations all the time. That’s who they are. But that’s not really a private club. We’re much more subdued, and we’re there for the long haul, right? We want to keep them there for a long time versus blowing their mind one or two times, and it’s a really rare experience, and then you might never see them again.

Tucker And then take the fee of that course, and then times it by all the times you play your private course, and make that your monthly dues, and then maybe we can make that an even discussion around experience.

Drew No doubt.

Derek Drew, when you meet a club, and you’re in early conversations with them, what percentage of the time do they already have a real clear sense of identity and purpose, and objectives? And what percentage of the time have they not landed on that, and then you have to kind of help them or encourage them to find that clarity?

Drew It’s probably like 60/40. 60 yes. 40 no. Maybe it’s closer to 50/50. Sometimes it’s very clear what it is. And then other times, when you ask the question, you get a lot of blank stares like, What’s he talking about? What do you mean? We know who we are. Okay, could you tell me more about that? And then nobody wants to pick up the ball and tell you the story. Then there are actually a few though that do have an identity. They just don’t know it. They just don’t know it yet. And it usually can be spurred along very quickly. Maybe it’s just a conversation with me, or people like yourselves. It’s somebody that’s creative, somebody who’s observing, that can come in and kind of take a mental snapshot of what they see and feel right out of the gate and say, well, this is what I feel and this is what I see when I’m here. And then you can start building on that if they can confirm it. And the work that we did with you at Lemon Bay was kind of an example of that. They had a sense of who they were. And they made that abundantly clear, and you could feel it when you were at the club. When you all went there to visit, you could feel it too. But I think just being able to expand on those kinds of elements and qualities is where creative people can really come in and make a big difference. And I think that’s why their identity has been made exceptionally strong by going through that process.

Derek When we talk about identity and brand, inevitably, logo comes into the conversation. Tucker and I are famous for kind of pounding the drum that your brand is not just your logo. Your brand is many things that craft and shape your reputation. However, sometimes that logo is the symbol that provides the first or maybe even the only impression that someone gets of your organization.

Drew That’s kind of a sticky conversation to have. It hasn’t happened very often, but it has happened. And it’s one of those things where I try to use it as an opportunity to say, Hey, this is important. You need to acknowledge this. You need to listen to what I’m about to tell you, that that logo does mean something. And if the golf course has this logo that looks like clip art, well, it’s not distinguishable, and it says nothing. It says nothing about who you are unless maybe the message is that you don’t care. You don’t value your club enough to spend time developing a logo that means something. There’s nothing there. It’s just sterile, and it doesn’t have a story behind it. I think logos are so important in being able to market yourself and to tell your story. I travel all over the country and world, and, yeah, I’ve got apparel that has logos on them from all the golf courses that we’ve been able to work for. Inevitably, when I’m traveling, people see your logo. They see you on the plane or in the airport, and they’ll say, I’ve never seen that logo before. Or maybe they’ve seen it before and they say, Oh, you’ve been there. That’s a really cool place. But if they see a logo, and it’s intriguing, it becomes a conversation piece. They say, Where’s that logo from? Well, now I get to tell the story. Now I get to tell all about this club and where it’s located and what they’re all about. That storytelling is what needs to happen. And that’s why I think the logo is so important, because we’re growing the brand by wearing that logo around. Whether you believe it or not, I’m sure you guys buy into that because that’s your business, but don’t underestimate the power of the logo.

Derek For those people, whether it’s full scale, whether we’re working a couple of holes, dig into your process a little bit. What is the first step that you recommend? What should they be thinking about? Not even just in terms of logistics, but in terms of mindset. What should they be thinking, maybe even before they make that call to you?

Drew The thing about selecting an architect is that there’s a lot of talent out there. So it’s not a matter of whether your golf course is going to be great or not. It can be great, but what’s the journey going to be like getting there and then moving on from that point? So what’s that relationship going to be about, and what’s that experience going to be about working with that person? My advice would be to think about that kind of situation and be smart about who you’re hiring. Because I always say in my interviews, when you’re hiring an architect, you’re not going to date. You’re fixing to get married. So it better be a damn good decision.

Derek How about for the creative people that might be listening, like us, where when you’re working on the course, we’re working the brand, sometimes we come in before you, sometimes we come in after, sometimes we come in during, what should those creative designers, strategists or marketing people keep in mind or could be doing when working alongside a project with you?

Drew You know, probably not anything too surprising, Derek. Clearly, they’ve got a process that they normally go through, and they should execute that process. I would say that if we’re engaged or about to be engaged or going to be part of the team, we’d probably like to just be part of the process as well. We’d like to get a phone call and the opportunity to say a few words about what we see, and what we’re about to do, or hoping to do, or need to do in order to maintain that identity. And we’re creative too. We wouldn’t get in the way of the process, but there might be some tidbits that we could cough up that might help the process that you’re going through. And that would be fun for us, just to share those kinds of perspectives and be part of that process. That certainly happened at Lemon Bay with you all. And that was important, but it was really rewarding because you got to be part of the process that you all developed for them. And you kind of got to watch the steps unfold and then see what you produced. And it’s like, yeah, they got it. They got it. They really listened, and they honed in, and they asked the right questions and developed a lot of ideas and an evolution of a concept. And, yeah, it was just fun to be part of.

Derek Talking with you through that project made our work better. The insights that you shared with us, that you learned from your perspective, in addition to what we heard from the members and the staff, your perspective was a bright light, given all of the same discoveries and learnings that you had done. Yeah, it made our work better. It was incredibly inspiring.

Drew Well, we’re all creative. We’re on the creative side, right? So we kind of speak the same language, and so that’s cool. I’m glad we could help. And ultimately, you’re making us look good too. And you’re making the client look good. That’s what we’re driven to do. That’s what we are there for. But that turned out really special.

Derek Drew, this was awesome. Where can people follow you, your work, or connect with you if they’ve got a project they want to talk to you about?

Drew I guess the easiest one would be our website, which is www.jdrewrogers.com. We’ve been posting a lot lately because we just put together a seven-part video series that was called Scenes From a Build, which was really fun. It was something we’ve always wanted to do. And I kind of found the right people to help us do it. It was amazing how it all folded together. But basically, it’s a step-by-step walk-through of a project that we’re engaged with right now, and working with the various team members and watching everything unfold and evolve through that process. Working with the superintendent, working with the client, working with the builder, and just all the decisions that are made and how we interact together. So that was something we’ve always wanted to do, and it’s on our website as well as those social media outlets so you can go see all those videos.

Derek I’ve seen a couple parts of them. They’re outstanding. We’ll add links to that in our show notes. Awesome.

Drew Very cool. Thank you.

Derek Thank you. Thanks again for joining us. I hope, on behalf of Tucker and me, that this conversation inspires anyone listening, especially at clubs, that they see their brand, that it includes their sense of place, the experience, the layout, and the story that all of those components tell every time somebody tees it up. We’ll catch you next time here on Brands Made Meaningful. Thanks again. Thanks for listening. Sussner is a branding firm dedicated to helping make a meaningful mark, guiding member organizations into the next chapter of their story. Learn more at sussner.com.