EPISODE 116

Ed They will run those highlights at night. I remember John Tollette at the Minnesota PGA was like, Really? And I’m like, I will guarantee you they will do that. And in 2006, we started to film the last nine of the state open. I would run home to my basement – because I’m just starting out. So I’m working in the basement. And I’d frantically edit these highlights on tape, and I would dub them onto beta, and I would label them all. I’d write my own shot sheet for all the shots, whatever it was, each golfer, and what hole and what was happening. Because I knew, as a sportscaster, what they needed. And then I would run, I would do a loop. I would start in Eden Prairie. I’d go to FOX. KARE 11, CCO, KSTP, and come back, and I’d hand-deliver all these tapes. Think about this one. It was 20 years ago, so it was a long time ago. And so the PGA was like, This is awesome. And I did that every year for several years. So, in 2007 is when Mike Schultz at Hazeltine, who was then the pro, was like, Hey, can you come and talk to us about some of the work you do and how you do it and how you get people noticed? So that was really the entrée into the private club world. And then from there, honestly, Derek, I was sort of avoidant. I just kept looking at the private club space. I’m like, you know what, they don’t have money. They don’t want to spend money on marketing. It’s kind of counter to who they are. It would be fun, but the opportunity seems so much bigger going B2B, and so that’s where we focus. But then, all of a sudden, we start working with HubSpot and Inbound Marketing. And people started reaching out, and I’m doing speaking engagements. This is so funny now to think about it, but I’m like, I’m not getting paid to do that talk. Then you realize it’s really helping people, and it’s useful, and they appreciate it so much. So I’m, like, oh, do these things. And one thing led to another.

Derek Long-winded, but you identified a need. It seems, as you talk about it, it was a really natural progression of your skillset, your background, and you identifying a market that would benefit from the marriage of the two, really

Ed Yeah, especially early on. That highlights thing was so easy. Honestly, it’s like the old lines, like shooting fish in a barrel. I think we started to expand to other tournaments, and you’ve got to remember that local was so important back then. And they weren’t going to dedicate a camera person to go out to shoot a local golf tournament. But the big thing was Hazeltine in 2012. And you have to go back to remember, coming out of the recession in 08 and 09, so many clubs were really hurting at that time. And we had been doing some work for Hazeltine, mostly more media relations, PR type, running press releases and stuff like that. And they got a new membership director who was interested in what we did and wanted to bring us in. The one thing I will tell you that kind of changed a lot of things for us was when we implemented HubSpot, the marketing software, with the understanding that when people come to your website as a club, the biggest thing they want to know is how much it costs. And private clubs, for whatever reason – well, we know why, it makes sense for some clubs – but they didn’t want to put that pricing out there. But we said to do it in exchange for an email address. Back in 2012, this is like, what, and then automating the follow-up emails and all the rest of that. It seemed kind of creepy, and now everyone knows how it works. But in 2012, Hazeltine took a chance. They were actually our very first HubSpot software customer and our very first Inbound Marketing client. So that was big for us. And, again, it just kind of took off that way.

Derek So now StoryTeller focuses on content marketing and video production. Obviously, with your background, that’s a huge piece of that digital strategy. And then, as you mentioned, HubSpot. Before I get into that, though, you started a podcast back in 2017.

Ed You were one of my first guests.

Derek Yeah.

Ed Like my first or second guest.

Derek Like in 2017, 2018. First of all, congratulations. I think that puts you into the top 1% of podcasters. If you ask AI or Google, with the average podcast – maybe you know the stat – how many episodes does the average podcast last once it gets launched?

Ed I don’t know. What is it?

Derek Three episodes. Three episodes and a maximum of like two to three months. So how many episodes since 2018?

Ed I don’t know. Through the pandemic, when everything was so weird, we kind of pulled back too, didn’t do a whole lot. We were trying to figure out what people want to talk about right now. I don’t know – a hundred? We started out in the beginning, you may remember, and we were trying to do one, I think, every week. And then we’re like, this isn’t sustainable. Then we’re like, maybe twice a month? So now my goal is two episodes a month. How many are you guys doing?

Derek About the same – every other week.

Ed We get busy scheduling and finding people who want to do it.

Derek Well, you’re awesome at it. Your news background, I’m sure, helps, but I just caught the recent one with Joel Livinggood, the general manager, for people who don’t know, over at Interlochen. Great conversation on culture. I’d recommend everybody go listen to that one. That was really good.

Ed Yeah, he’s done a lot of great work. Pretty impressive, especially at a young age, but very cool.

Derek So with Storyteller, especially now, when a club comes to you, when a club hires you, what’s the primary thing that they’re usually trying to solve that you help them with?

Ed Growing their membership. You mentioned video. It’s kind of funny, Derek. We love producing video. And I always say, at the heart, one of my real passions is that I love that creative. You’re a creative. And so that whole idea of putting stuff together like that is really fun. But we’ve done so little video this year and last year as well. So the last couple of years, our emphasis from a growth perspective has been less on video and more on helping clients wanted to answer your question directly, grow membership. So while 50% of clubs had wait lists for the last couple of years, now it’s under 50. There are 50% that didn’t. And I always say, those 50%, what’s happening with them? What is preventing them from being one of those clubs? While our video work has gone down, we’ve built a lot more websites. That’s probably been our biggest growth area as far as services. And then the other thing that we’re starting to do more of, and this is almost going back to my old PR days and media relations days, is communications. So ongoing member communications, which is so funny. You see this too, because I know you’re close to PCMA and CMAA as well. But when Jackie Singleton started the Communications Summit, the CMAA Communication Summit, in the late 2010s, it was fairly small. But now there’s such a huge need, in my opinion, for better member communications, not just like in big events or big capital projects, which they’re desperately, in my opinion, in need of help there. But just like day-to-day communications. The platforms they’re using are crappy, outdated, and they are not effective at running. Frankly, clubs have a really hard time. If they don’t have a communications staff or person, it’s really difficult for them to do a great job at that.

Derek And they understand that because that event, that marketing communications summit, it sells out now. It went from a few people to, I think last year’s event was 125, and they had a wait list. It maxed out. So the demand from the people who take care of the marketing for the clubs on behalf of the clubs, they’re craving that kind of education information on how to do that job better, how to tell their club story better.

Ed We have a similar goal here in just trying to help clubs become more contemporary. Clubs are doing a good job of trying to transition. They’re learning. But there are so many tools that they have to now manage and so many channels, whether it’s social, email, or texting. Without a really good process and platform to do that, it’s just so hard for them to pull it off. And I think one of the biggest challenges, I sit on the board at our club here in the Detroit area, and it’s a lot of times helping board members understand that the way that it used to be done, while charming and sometimes quaint, is not always all that effective when you’re trying to reach hundreds of people.

Derek You’re trying to help them tell their story through video, through marketing, through communications, new members, prospective members, and existing members as well. In your experience, what’s one of the most common gaps between the story the club thinks they should be telling, but especially for those that don’t have a wait list, compared to the story that the prospects out there are actually experiencing? The perception of how they’re thinking about that club because that story hasn’t been designed for them – where’s that disconnect usually?

Ed We’re both StoryBrand guys. I really do think, though, that’s kind of at the core of it, which is that I think clubs are historically very much about talking about themselves. We have amazing dining facilities. We have a championship golf course. In that sort of brochure of amenities, I think at a time really spoke to people that we’re like, Ooh, this looks like a great club. But I think the opportunity for clubs today is to really connect with what that prospective member is feeling, thinking, and looking for in their life. And not just even in a private club, but there are levels of that. But it’s like, what’s going to fill me up? And so just the approach with the language, the story is not your resort swimming pool. Your story is where your family memories come to life, where you build a legacy for generations. It’s like those things. And I don’t know if you feel like this, but it’s not like they’re far off. Like when you really can dig a little bit into this and get people thinking, they know what it is. They just need to be led there.

Derek They can’t articulate it. They’re stuck on history or their facilities. What I love is, where you and I are so symbiotic, it’s almost the calculation of how to take the story of our facilities, layer in the story of our history where it’s appropriate, and then make that an emotional narrative that, in your perspective, ultimately leads to membership and revenue. It’s almost like a scientific formula in there that’s way beyond building our great clubhouse, and then that’ll solve everything.

Ed You just start to look at the story, which is so important, but then it’s like, what’s behind the story? Because it’s one thing to be able to say that families grow together here, whatever. No matter what that story is, it’s like a lot of relationships. If you’re broken on the inside, you’re going to have a really hard time keeping members. You’re going to have a really hard time attracting because your reputation gets out in the community. And if people know that you’re really dysfunctional, there are enough people who say, You know, I don’t want to be a part of that. One of my interviews that I thought was so interesting, it might’ve been Jim Butler at Club Benchmarking, but it was someone who said one of the most important things a prospective member can ask to better understand their financial position and how decisions are made. Because that will inform so much about how the club is run and really understanding governance. Because if you get in a place where you feel like it’s not really your thing, it’s easy to leave. Well, unless you’d plunk down a hundred grand, then it’s harder.

Derek Or you own a home in a bundled community.

Ed Exactly.

Derek Video is such an awesome tool. You said you’re doing a little less this year, but it’s still such a dynamic storytelling tool. It’s a huge part and expertise of what you guys do. What is it about video that works so well, specifically in the private club space? What separates the clubs that use it effectively from the ones that either don’t use it at all or just kind of go through the motions when it comes to video?

Ed What we’ve always been such a fan of is that it can take you somewhere, show you things, and introduce you to people. And so it’s that whole thing about how people shop today. I felt so outdated just saying what I just said. But we all go online to learn. It’s so obvious. Like 10 years ago, maybe it wasn’t obvious, but it’s so obvious how we do that today. And if you have a video that tells a story, introduces you to people, if I’m looking at a club, I’m not going to schedule a tour to come out there unless I absolutely 100% know 10 members, and it’s going to be great because I always go as a guest. But if I am new to an area, or if I’ve just seen the club and I don’t really know, I’ll watch a video. I want to find out – do I look like them? Is it somewhere I feel like I’ll be happy? What do the facilities look like with people in it? I think that’s what you’re looking for. It’s the classic, do I see myself in your club’s story? Even when you go on a tour, it’s not like you’re meeting members. But if I could watch a piece that has interviews with members and I can hear their passion and what they love about the club, I think that means something.

Derek I’m thinking of Instagram, maybe not the website, but especially social media, where prospects can do part of that research, and they can go learn a little bit about the club, and they see. And I don’t want to ask for any trade secrets or for you to give away something that people should be hiring you to do and not just be doing it themselves. But there’s gotta be some certain types of comments that demonstrate a club’s culture, not only that members would love to see because they love to see themselves enjoying the club that they love. I suppose with some more exclusive private clubs, members don’t want to be seen publicly. But for the most part, it’s a question – do members love to see themselves? And is that an effective way to show the club’s culture to a prospect who, like you said, might be able to see them themselves and that group of people?

Ed First of all, I have no secrets. It’s kind of funny because no one really likes to be on camera. After interviewing people for Lord knows how long, no one really likes watching themselves. However, I do think that when people understand, when members understand what you’re trying to accomplish. Isn’t it funny? It’s like no one really likes how they look on camera. They always say I sound bad, I look fat, or whatever. But there are a lot of people who do like to be on camera. Just look at social media. So is it effective? Yeah, I think it’s super effective. So, getting into the weeds a little bit, what we know is from a search standpoint. One of the things that we did early on, going back to Hazeltine in 2012, was that we knew that if we could leverage SEO and write blog content that would be found by search engines, we could increase awareness for the club. So we would write in the 2010s, into the 2020s, blog content that is optimized for search. So, best family clubs in the Twin Cities, best family, whatever the topics were. We had tried to write as many topics about our blogs with certain topics that people might be looking for in searching for a private club. But now, with AI in the last several years, what we’re looking at is that some are calling it AEO, which is basically AI engine optimization, trying to get ranked in snippets. So when you search something, your snippet pops up. And so that’s one thing we’re looking at. But also, we think that there’s going to be more emphasis on social media for sure. For awareness, if you’re trying to get found, the need to be found on social media, we believe is going to be increasingly important in having that content in those channels. I think it’s going to be really, really important in the years to come here. If you look at numbers, people who are using Google, for example, as a search engine have dropped substantially. I mean, it used to be like 90-plus percent of all searchers were going through Google. Now it’s like 65%. People are using AI to search. They’re using their social media to search. So getting found on social media, we think, is really important. And video is obviously a powerful tool in social media.

Derek I’m going to save AI for another conversation, because that’s a whole other episode. I’m going to shift a second because part of your work is in attracting members, member acquisition, whether it’s adding to the wait list or the new members themselves. But a big part of your work is member communication, engaging with the members who are at the club. With the clubs that we work with, I see some clubs do better jobs than others with that onboarding period. There’s a difference between attracting a member, even getting a member to join, and then the time frame that it takes to get that member to where they actually feel emotionally like they belong to that club. Once somebody joins a club, puts down that initiation fee, is there like a key window time frame that the club has an opportunity to really make sure they’re locking in and deepening that connection?

Ed It’s like the first couple of years when they’re most likely to refer another member or something. I can’t remember – maybe a few months. But it’s a relatively defined and short window that a club has to really pull that member in and leverage them to drive more referrals. You’re a member of a private club. And when you join a club, if you’ve been a member of other clubs, you know the process, right? But it takes time to really feel like you belong. And so we’re a big fan of that onboarding process and creating resources for clubs so that it makes it really easy for people to know the staff. One of the things I always say is that your staff are the new members’ first friends. They should be. You know, we walk in, and they’re like, Hey, Mr. Sussner, how are you? And you’re like, Wow, I’m a new member. They know who I am. It means something to you, and you’re going to get to know the head pro in the golf shop because you’re spending time there. So the faster that the staff can welcome these people and introduce them to other people, the faster that we can get a new number to really understand the policies and the rules. Because that’s what so many new members are afraid of. It’s like, I’m going to do something wrong, and I’m going to get a letter, or somebody’s going to tell me. And make that really easy. We just think that in that first six to 12 months, make it really easy for them to be a member and to love that place.

Derek From a personal experience, the first 90 days is very intimidating. You were a member at a club in the Twin Cities, now you’re a member at club in Detroit, so you had some expectations. Plus, you work in the industry, so you kind of know the process. But for that first-time club member who’s never been a member before but has only ever had the benefit of being a guest, it’s an intimidating process. But that’s where your work comes in, in communication. All the clubs send so many emails for so many different reasons to continue to communicate with our members and keep them engaged. I think you’re kind of a data guy. Do you follow any metrics around some of the pieces and parts that are the most effective, the types of communications that members actually care about getting?

Ed Let me put it this way, the clubs that we talk to, whether it’s on a regular basis or a first-time basis, they’re trying to figure out what tools to use. But you just said it, they are sending out a ton of emails. So they’re like disparate pieces, right? It’s like, I’ve got my social media stuff, and so some people might be posting there, and the club’s thinking we’re sending out emails to tell people about events, but they’re not opening, or they’re not looking. I think that in general, most clubs will tell you they have a fairly high open rate of emails. I mean, north of 50, 60%. But is that leading to people feeling informed? Do they feel connected? I don’t know. So, we’re big fans of creating a network, like a hub of information, that starts on the website with a blog that has content going out to different channels. Content that’s being produced in other channels, like in social media, or even podcasts that are bringing people back to the website. What you probably hear too, people who are in leadership positions are like, I don’t know what’s going on. We send a lot of emails. We try to communicate. We try to stay informed and help people with this stuff. And I think sometimes it’s just a matter of turning that around, saying, all right, you’re doing a great job with that, but what is it that they want? And what do they need? And taking that step back, maybe even surveying your members to say, Hey, what channels are most important to you? I think it’s fairly obvious, which may be why a lot of clubs don’t do it. It’s like, I know the young people are going to be on social media. But that might not be true. I mean, you and I are older. I don’t know about your wife, but my wife is on Facebook a lot and on Instagram. I mean, the younger people are on TikTok and other places anyway, you know.

Derek Well, I’m even at an age that I don’t mind a printed newsletter versus the Dingo one. It’s like, I don’t know.

Ed Just as a tangent, there’s this pushback. The speaker at Central Florida who was booed talking about AI at the commencement. And I think there are a lot of young people who are going to push back and say, like, analog is actually kind of cool.

Derek Yeah, old school. We’re going to bring back business card design.

Ed Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Derek With all those channels, you talk about all the tactical ways to implement all those communications, but it still comes back to the story. It still comes to making sure that for those to not just share data updates on weather or dining specials this evening, there has to be that underlying foundation that’s still communicating in a way that supports that club story. I gotta think that that’s a huge part, not only for your work to look at all those channels and to figure out which ones are the most effective, but part of them being effective is making sure that you’re using the right content and that that ties back to their story. I gotta imagine how hard it is for clubs that are already doing all that communication for you to come in, make sure they’re telling the right story, and now fix all that.

Ed It all starts with who you are. It all starts, in my mind, with your core values. In my opinion, I’ve seen more club core values that are really weak, that say nothing about who you are. And building from that is so hard because once you know the essence of what that club is and what they stand for, it’s not about being premier. It’s not about necessarily being honest or high integrity. It’s not that those things don’t matter. But it’s like the old things, those are permission to play values. Those are like, yeah, you better be those things. But what are those things that really define you that you can latch a brand onto, because, as you know, then you start to see things. And then once you have that, everything is tied back to that why. Simon Sinek will call it your why, what it is. It’s hard for any business to really do that. And I think it’s hard for clubs. I’ve done some workshops with clubs in just defining their core values. And they get to a point where it’s like, well, isn’t that like every club? Doesn’t every club kind of say the same thing? And that’s where I always feel if that’s where we are, then we’ve got to dig a little bit deeper because there’s something else that we need to connect to. But then once you have it, as you know, and you do such a great job with this, that needs to be in everything you do. Not just like on your printed and online materials, but how you show up. You’ve got to feel that brand through everything. Man, that’s hard to do.

Derek How often does a club hire you to come in and do a communication strategy? And you’re already thinking through a marketing plan and HubSpot and how we can tell a story to help that club acquire new members, get a healthier wait list. And then you realize in that process, they don’t have a story. We need to have this workshop. We need to reset our values. You literally can tie the work that you do, needing the foundation of doing that core value workshop, with the result in higher revenues. There’s a path right there – an ROI path.

Ed Yeah. It’s like going down to the core values is like going down into the studs. I think the biggest thing is that it lacks perceived value. Like, why? So when we engage with clubs, especially for new membership initiatives or communications, we dig and try to understand who they are and who they believe they are. And not everyone is really very creative in that way, you know, and so they’ll usually tap out at some point that’s well short of where we’re trying to get to. But you go, okay, what is this like? It’s one of the hardest things we do because every piece of content that we create, we want to connect back to it. And if it’s like this ambiguous thing, man, it’s hard to latch onto that. It’s really tricky. And that’s where, frankly, we’ll have a slow start with a client relationship because we’re trying to produce whether it’s blog content or video content or whatever it is. If they don’t have a soul, it is really hard to connect to. It’s like meeting someone at a party who’s great at cocktail conversation, but there’s nothing on that. Just tricky.

Derek You’ve had eight years of podcast conversations. You’ve been telling stories for your whole career. StoryTellers have been doing this for 20 years. You’ve been working with clubs for a long time. Thinking about potential club leaders, GMs, and marketing directors that may be tuning in, what’s something that keeps coming up over and over in all of your conversations? Is there a kind of a consistent theme or a true line, something that clubs are consistently taking for granted or underestimating? I don’t want to fill in the blank because I’ve got some specific areas that I could see that you could speak to. But in general, any place where clubs are consistently missing out on how they’re showing up for their prospective members?

Ed One of the challenges that clubs have is when you get into this capital project thing and try to build new things, a lot of times what clubs will do is try to recreate what they had. But what they need to be thinking is, if we’re going to update something, we need to think about what the member is going to want in five to 10 years, and that’s really hard. And so I think that the challenge for a lot of club leaders in general, and a lot of GMs are just trying to survive day to day, like operationally making sure this year is okay and staffing and all that sort of thing, but for boards and GMs to really be thinking, okay, we need a new pool. Like, what should this look like? What’s that member going to look like down the road? And then to have the courage to talk to the legacy members and say, We get it. We get that you loved it that way. What we’re trying to do is to protect this club for your grandchildren and make sure that we have something that is going to appeal to them as well. And that’s a hard conversation, especially for those who are really stuck in their ways. But I think it’s a real challenge. And then the other thing that comes up a lot is just governance. I think, in general, governance is really tricky. And for a million different reasons. You talk to enough consultants, and you’re like, Oh, wow, they’re making a lot of money in this consulting around governance. But when you really think about why they do it, I think it’s probably money well spent.

Derek The nuance, the emotions, I think back to the work that we’ve done in the past with business-to-business clients, corporate clients, retail clients. Those industries and businesses, unless it’s an owner-operator-led organization that you’re working with, just doesn’t have the emotional component. The board members – they’re members. They’re emotionally invested. They’re financially invested. They’re probably successful in their own rights. And I think part of those challenges come from the passion that they bring and the passion they have, which can also make it really hard to make objective decisions that are the best for the whole and not just what I want and the best of the future and not just what we’re doing today. So, yeah, spot on.

Ed It’s interesting. And I’ve learned so much in my conversations, as I’m sure you do as well. There really needs to be a commitment from club leaders to actively recruit members to sit in board positions that are really concerned and interested in the betterment of the club and not just the things that they want to have done. And that’s not always the case, where you really have to just actively recruit and actively think about who is going to help us get to where we want to go. And then I think for the next generation, one of the challenges is going to be really getting people to want to be that involved. Like to join a club that’s actually something I’m looking forward to – to being part of membership.

Derek Awesome. Last question – with something we maybe haven’t quite touched on yet. If a GM or a board member is listening to this today and they have a sense that their club story could be working harder to help their club in attracting members, what’s one thing you would advise them to do first?

Ed Understand who you are. What is it about your club? What’s the essence of your story? I had this really quick anecdote around that because it’s hard. Sometimes it’s really hard because people get so caught up in the weeds of their club. I had this conversation with a privately owned club actually, and we were working on some stuff. And I said, Can you just tell me what it feels like to be at your club? He was having a really hard time articulating. And I said, What does it feel like? And he really struggled and just talking. So finally I said, You’re a member at – it was actually Whisper Rock in Scottsdale – I said, You’re a member at Whisper Rock, right? I said, if your club was like Whisper Rock, is that close to how you’d want to feel? And he said, Yes. And I said, Okay, describe Whisper Rock to me. And man, he went on, and it was great. It was great. So if we can do that, if that’s what you want people to feel, and that’s it, would that make you happy? And he’s like, Absolutely. So that’s probably it, though. It’s like maybe, when you’re trying to really figure out what’s at the core of your club or what you envision this being, really try to tap into that, but look at other ways, and maybe other clubs, that you aspire to be like, and describe that story. You know, the story that perceives story even, because it’s always different on the inside.

Derek And like you said earlier, which is kind of one of my favorite takeaways so far from today’s conversation, is that it’s already there. That person’s just having a hard time articulating it. He knows it. He feels it. Your job is to help him articulate it and put it into a narrative so that you can help them tell that story.

Ed Yeah, it’s hard. And you know what, and to your point, maybe they can’t. Maybe that person is not really it, but maybe there’s someone else who knows it well, who can articulate, you know, what I mean? But, yeah, that’s absolutely right. That’s my belief at least.

Derek Awesome. Ed Heil, owner of StoryTeller Club Marketing, host of the Crushing Club Marketing podcast, which everybody should check out. Thanks for joining me today. I appreciate the conversation.

Ed Thanks, Derek. It’s a lot of fun.

Derek The club’s building lasting memberships aren’t just telling better stories to get people in the door. They’re telling better stories to make people feel like they made the right call. StoryTellers’ work is proof that revenue and belonging aren’t competing goals. When the story is right, both follow. If today’s episode resonated with you, please share it with someone in your club world. And if you haven’t already done so, sign up for Clubs Made Meaningful Insights at clubsmademeaningful.com. Original frameworks and ideas on identity, belonging, and member experience delivered to your inbox weekly. Thanks again for listening. At Sussner, we help private clubs build brands that create belonging. If this episode resonated with you, please share it with someone in your club world. And until next time, let’s create something worth celebrating.